<div dir="ltr">Maybe this is the way to bring forward "vote mirroring"</div><div class="gmail_extra"> <div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Mar 5, 2013 at 8:08 AM, marc <<a href="mailto:marc@merkstduwas.de" target="_blank">marc@merkstduwas.de</a>> wrote: <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Hi Micheal, Currently the working group AG MFT tries to establish several kind of prototypes of a) one concrete methodology (qkonsens), b) concrete portal/web site (<a href="http://probble.de" target="_blank">probble.de</a>) and c) concrete Common Discussion Standard based on an ontology and a web api (<a href="http://disco.codeplex.com" target="_blank">disco.codeplex.com</a>). As you put it, all our work is part of #2 (Discussion System) within the overall decision-making process. But nevertheless, I don't think that our working group wants to be competitor to any other project in this area. Our aim is rather to cooperate with as much projects as possible. Unfortunately the progress of our working group based on our volunteer work is not as fast as I would like to see it. For a better progress our working group devided into the following four teams: a) Ontology Definition Team (ODT) - deals with the ontology specification. b) Prototype Core Team (PCT) - deals with the imlementation of a database schema based on the ontology and a web api to access the data in a restful way. c) Prototype Plug-In Team )PPT) - deals with the implementation of concrete discussion methodologies. d) Public Releations Team (PRT) - deals with our 'public relations' ;o) My individual next tasks are in terms of the PCT a) to create a conceptual description of our d!sco prototype on CodePlex and b) creating a first implementation of the Web API. As soon as this is established, I would like to invite you to brainstorm about possible collaboration. From our point of view this is a question of how to make the data available for all other interested parties. Because our goal is to define a common discussion ontologie, inspired by and particularly based on eDialogus (<a href="http://www.imc.com.gr/ontologies/eDialogos/consensus/" target="_blank">http://www.imc.com.gr/ontologies/eDialogos/consensus/</a>). So the overall question to be answered from your side is: Do you want to participate in such kind of standardized ontology to enable easy data exchange with any participating tool? I would like to welcome you. What do you think? Cheers marc -----Original Message----- From: Michael Allan Sent: Tuesday, March 05, 2013 5:19 AM To: AG Meinungsfindungstool Cc: Votorola ; Start/Metagov ; AG Liquid Democracy Subject: Re: [Ag Meinungsfindungstool] (SMVcon) Developers cooperating withAG Meinungsfindungstool Thanks for offering, Marc. We both feel the same. To answer your question, our purpose is to coordinate plans of action (i.e. to achieve public autonomy) by the method of discussion aimed at mutual understanding and consensus (i.e. public opinion). In your diagram, this translates to "position forming" (Standpunktbildung) based on a discussion system. <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> <a href="http://wiki.piratenpartei.de/wiki/images/7/72/MFT_BigPicture_v01.jpg" target="_blank">http://wiki.piratenpartei.de/wiki/images/7/72/MFT_BigPicture_v01.jpg</a> Where would you locate Votorola inside this picture? </blockquote> So we're sitting at #2. That makes us competitors. We (Votorolans, Outcasters) have been at this for years, where you (AGM) are just getting started. But I welcome your offer to cooperate, because I fear that otherwise we might do harm to people. If either of our platforms were ever to establish itself as a de-facto monopoly that suppresses other choices through network effects, then users and citizens would be robbed not only of their freedom, but also of the opportunity to be the authors of that freedom. How can we cooperate to prevent that? Mike marc said: <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> Hi Michael, Yes, of course. We would also like to cooperate with Votorola. I don't know if you have seen the following big picture (overview of the decision-making-process) yet: <a href="http://wiki.piratenpartei.de/wiki/images/7/72/MFT_BigPicture_v01.jpg" target="_blank">http://wiki.piratenpartei.de/wiki/images/7/72/MFT_BigPicture_v01.jpg</a> Where would you locate Votorola inside this picture? Cheers marc -----Original Message----- From: Michael Allan Sent: Monday, March 04, 2013 8:27 AM To: AG Meinungsfindungstool Cc: Votorola ; Start/Metagov ; AG Liquid Democracy Subject: [Ag Meinungsfindungstool] (SMVcon) Developers cooperating with AGMeinungsfindungstool Hello Marc, (cc Votorola, Metagov, AG Liquid Democracy) > Top 1 - Abstimmungen > Fragekatalog für SMVCon > <a href="http://meinungsfindungstool.piratenpad.de/SMVConFragenkatalog" target="_blank">http://meinungsfindungstool.piratenpad.de/SMVConFragenkatalog</a> Unfortunately I can't attend SMVcon. But I'd like to share my answer to one item of the proposed questionnaire (Fragekatalog): * Are you a developer? If so, can you imagine cooperating with AG Meinungsfindungstool in the development of a discussion tool? Yes, I'm a developer for Votorola. Speaking for myself, I'd like to cooperate. My main requirement would be that the core platform remain open to all technical designs, including Votorola's. I think the competence to delimit the user's choice of tools belongs to the user alone, while we as responsible engineers are competent only to enhance and extend that personal choice, never to impede it! We've long understood how to give each user complete freedom of choice in regard to discussion and opinion-forming tools. We know of at least one solution (already posted to these lists) that nobody has yet found a fault with; namely free-range voting based on vote mirroring. Please let's not surrender our responsibilities and freedoms to a monopoly controlled by technocrats, or by anyone else. Instead, let's root out the would-be monopolies and bust them up. Or better yet, let's prevent them forming in the first place. (Again, we know how, because it's the same solution.) -- Michael Allan Toronto, <a href="tel:%2B1%20416-699-9528" value="+14166999528" target="_blank">+1 416-699-9528</a> <a href="http://zelea.com/" target="_blank">http://zelea.com/</a> </blockquote> -- Ag-meinungsfindungstool mailing list <a href="mailto:Ag-meinungsfindungstool@lists.piratenpartei.de" target="_blank">Ag-meinungsfindungstool@lists.piratenpartei.de</a> <a href="https://service.piratenpartei.de/listinfo/ag-meinungsfindungstool" target="_blank">https://service.piratenpartei.de/listinfo/ag-meinungsfindungstool</a> _______________________________________________ Votorola mailing list <a href="mailto:Votorola@zelea.com" target="_blank">Votorola@zelea.com</a> <a href="http://mail.zelea.com/mailman/listinfo/votorola" target="_blank">http://mail.zelea.com/mailman/listinfo/votorola</a> </blockquote></div> <div> </div>-- <div><div style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif"> Best Regards / Mit freundlichen Grüßen</div><div style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif"> ***********************************************</div><div style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif">Alexander Praetorius</div><div style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif">Rappstraße 13</div> <div style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif">D - 60318 Frankfurt am Main</div><div style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif">Germany</div><div style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif"> [skype] alexander.praetorius</div><div style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif">[mail] <a href="mailto:alexander.praetorius@serapath.de" target="_blank">citizen@serapath.de</a></div><div style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif"> [web] <a href="http://wiki.piratenpartei.de/Benutzer:Serapath" target="_blank">http://wiki.piratenpartei.de/Benutzer:Serapath</a> </div><div style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif">***********************************************</div> </div> </div>